Wednesday, March 28, 2012

Monumental Movie: A Review

Strengths

Last night I went to the opening of Monumental, a film directed by Kirk Cameron. I thought the movie was much needed and was well produced. It was refreshing to hear Kirk say much of what he said. The monologue Kirk does with the kickin' guitar riff in the background at the beginning is worth the price of admission. One of the big points of that monologue is the idea that the church has been passive on many of our moral issues. So much so, that many put forward the idea that the worse it gets, the better it is for the church because that means that Jesus is coming back sooner. While the church sits passive on those issues, it becomes a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. Pretty pointed stuff from the star of the Left Behind movies. I wanted to get up and leave the theater after that monologue and go do something.

The best parts of the movie were the explanation we got about the history of the Pilgrims\Puritans and the explanation of the monument that has been the center of some controversy due to some conspiracy theorist type objections. The Pilgrim history was excellent and could, by itself, prove conclusively that America was founded as a Christian nation. David Barton's segment was helpful in establishing the not-unanimous but majority opinion of the founding fathers' Christianity. The Bible from the 18th century that he showcases, printed by Congress for use in public schools with the subscriber's list in the back showing it was funded by signers of the Declaration and the Constitution is pretty good stuff. His claim that it is one of the rarest books in the world is ridiculous (20-some copies does not qualify that set for such a claim). This is the bookseller coming out in me, but there are a lot of editions of the Bible which would sell for more if they came to auction and rarity has as much to do with demand as supply.

Marshall Foster's explanation of the monument (The National Monument to the Forefathers) was excellent. Brannon Howse has made a stink because the Freemasons were involved in its construction. He writes, "It is my belief based on hours of research that the Monument to the Forefathers is not a Biblically acceptable rallying point or symbol for Christians or Christian families or the way we should go for several reasons. One major reason would be that historical documents report that the monument had its cornerstone laid by Freemasons who were involved in part in funding and erecting this monument." He then goes on to detail the fact that some names of Freemasons appear on the corner stone and that there was a list of subscribers which contained Freemasons. He then asks the question, "Should Christians unite around and worship God at this monument?" Since Howse never saw the movie before he wrote his critique he did not know that Kirk and Marshall never "worshipped God" around this monument. But what they DID do was go over the symbolism (which had zero to do with Freemasonry) point by point and suggest it as a guideline for our families to instill Biblical principles in our homes and eventually, in our nation. I am looking forward to some of the study materials that will be suggested by Kirk and plan on going over them with my family. In the meantime, Howse has marginalized himself in his stirring of the pot since Kirk never endorsed Freemasonry in the movie. The point of the monument is the symbolism.

The other main idea of the movie is that kings and leadership do not have autonomous authority to rule and reign as they wish, with no regard to the Law of God. Some critics of these kinds of documentaries will state that Romans 13 gives leaders carte blanche to govern as they will and we must submit. Romans 13 does not even teach this in context because it states, "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil...For he is the minister of God to thee for good" (Rom. 13:3-4). In other words, the God ordained function of leadership is to promote "good"--that which is morally excellent. Kirk does not go over this in the movie, but I am anticipating a common objection to the content, which reveals my bias, so there it is.

Weaknesses

Now, for my criticism. In the latter part of the film the movie takes a turn towards obscurity. There was a tremendous build up in the organization of the material and then a vague conclusion. I am not totally sure what the film makers want me to do with this information other than buy some curriculum that they will be offering. This vagueness may be by design, but it is annoying. It's a lot of money to spend producing a documentary and then going light on the punch line. At the very least, a gospel presentation would have been appropriate.

This was evident by the crowd reaction in our theater at the end. Our satellite feed got knocked out in the middle of Kirk's live concluding remarks and a tea party type guy got up and urged the crowd to "do something." He had no plan, just "something" because things are really, really bad. This opened the door to a bunch of tea party types pushing various websites and it became evident that Glenn Beck's publicity for this movie filled our theater since most people pointed to Glenn Beck's websites and work. One retired pastor said that we should all go to church. I could barely stand it, and my wife was even thinking of open-air preaching to this crowd (she has never done it) when a guy I preach with on the streets finally preached the gospel. He started with Acts 17:11--a challenge to study the Bible. The reaction was predictable. People all over the theater stood up and left as soon as he mentioned Jesus. I leaned over and said to Lance (my buddy), "Hey man, you really know how to clear a room." Afterwards, one guy waited at the door to thank Lance for preaching. One. The crowd reaction illustrates the weakness of the movie.

Here's the problem. The principles are all dead on accurate with the movie. But if this movie becomes some sort of rallying cry for the tea party, which isn't fully committed to the gospel or the law of God, it will be a wasted opportunity. Kirk's decision to have Beck do an endorsement in the live feed before the movie began was a mistake. It's going to give Howse and the discernment ministries fits and it was an easily avoidable faux pas. Beck's claims to pray to God (as a Mormon) in that endorsement are problematic since we do not pray to the same God. It doesn't make Kirk a heretic. It makes him guilty of an error in discernment. It's hard for those of us who have defended Kirk and promoted the movie on our Facebook walls when the torrent of conspiracy lunacy was unleashed by Howse's blog post.

I am no movie maker, but if I was a consultant, what would have been wrong with making the point of the movie the power of the gospel to change hearts which leads to national change? What would have been wrong with making a clear statement of "this is where you start" beyond telling us to watch for resources from the movie website? Tie the issue up with Jesus and His gospel and then give us something concrete; like a challenge to read the Pentateuch (the Law of God) and then point to the coming resources? If Kirk had done that I don't think Lance would have had to.

The movie was worth watching and I will be buying the DVD when it comes out. I hope to teach my family the principles behind the Founders Monument because those principles are Biblical (and no, Mr. Howse, I won't become a Mason or a Mormon because I don't join cults). Discernment is not just fleeing from every reference to something worldly in our culture. It is being able to chew the meat and spit out the bones. Monumental is a meaty flick with low bone content. Watch it and bring a toothpick.

83 comments:

Alondra said...

wow sorry you had this response afterward. All we had was a very quiet crowd, and lady said "God Bless America" there was an applause, and we all left with the ideas and information we just learned swimming in our heads. Not political types, no one was pushy. There was a sober feeling in the air as we all left, that this country was worth fighting for and how we need to look "back" (to the foundation) to go forward

Shawn said...

Alondra, in regards to the ladys comment about "God Bless America". This country is under Gods judgement and wrath. Christians in this country really need to stand up and speak the True Gospel. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only thing that is going to make a difference. Christians are not called to stand on picket lines and talk about politics, Obama-care or taxes.

We have a war to fight and it is not flesh and blood. Thousands of people are dying everyday and going to hell, numbers of babies are being murdered everyday, bars on almost every corner, Casinos are becoming more popular, same sex marriage is legal in certain states, Hollywood release the most filthy disgusting movies that people shouldn't even see, pornography, and to many more to list.

As a street evangelist in Charlotte, (aka: Bible belt) it is clear that many people claim the name of Christ, and have no clue what it means to be born again (John 3:3). Jesus is the idol they "worship" on Sunday but then live like demons the rest of the week.

If we want this country to be turned around Christians, I am talking about True Born Again, blood bought followers of Jesus Christ, need to stand up and proclaim the Gospel. The only thing that is going to matter in the end is Christ, and did you live for Him, by laboring for His harvest.

Chris_H said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chris_H said...

Excellent review sir. Thank you for this, I pray it puts many nay-sayers doubts to rest. Despite my pre-mill beliefs, I have never believed Christians could or should not be active to make things better. I have only been doubtful of Christians efforts when we choose political rallying as opposed to gospel preaching. While I understand you feel Kirk left the final answer ambiguous, I actually appreciated what He did. His statement that the answer was "not in the White House, but in our house" I felt was spot on. The Pilgrims understood it started with raising our families in the Lord which eventually led to the liberties we now have. I believe that is the action he is urging us to take again. I applaud that decision in the film.

Dale Jackson said...

I agree. And you are dead on target with this review. Thank you for it, Jon.

As a side, I did some searching for more photos of this monument. I was very intrigued, and like many people I've heard, I too have never heard of this monument - the largest granite monument in the USA.

I found a large group of Flickr photos that shows every carving and feature of the monument. Not one was shown to have any freemason symbology. I learned actually that the Masons did lay a corner stone, but whatever they wrote is buried within.

Here is that group of photos from Flickr so you can see for yourself more details.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/asullens/with/2816433612/

Thank you, Jon for making a very good and well balanced review.

Lisa said...

I liked your review. We talked about the Gospel message being absent, and chalked it up to it being a history information movie aimed at a Christian audience. But in further thought, especially in light of Glenn Beck's unfortunate comments, the Gospel should have been presented. There was a lot of information presented, and I actually liked the ambeguity of the ending. It left us, the people, with the knowledge we didnt have before, with renewed patriotism, a little anger in the belly, and a conviction to not just let it all go because it seems too far gone.

loginmyeye said...

Our movie theatre got the Gospel on DVD in the form of "The Biggest Question."

I'm looking forward to seeing it again as I was just distracted by Beck being involved... Beck can NOT be trusted.

That being said, I struggle with the issue of the Gospel... I install and fix computers every day and don't mention the Gospel to known lost folks...

This movie/project doesn't strike me as a "Gospel" project, but a political project... and I don't know that I can find anything wrong with that...

(this is where my brain begins whirling.)

Good job, Jon. I'm with you regarding BH. I listened to hours and hours of him railing against Cameron... in the middle of that he repented and then continued to do what he publicly repented of...

http://www.demandthemovie.com/monumental/

Shirley said...

Thank you so much for this review. I am completely overwhelmed with the lack of concern from the Church when it comes to same things you wrote about. Right now, I am listening to Christian teachers in the public schools raving about The Hunger Games and going so far as taking their middle school students there. I have only read reviews about this movie and it just baffles me that the Church is promoting it to young children even in lower grades. Hoping you will address this too, unless you have already.

AnythingAnimated said...

All nice thoughts ... Our theatre was sold out too ... and it was fun to be a part of. Our main goal in going was to simply support moral, christian content in theaters. I'm tired of near-porn and the "F" word being the only options for a night out at the movies. So a whole segment of the non-christian groups don't care about me and my opinions ... but I would have been a hypocrite not to go, when I am always complaining that I have to shut the DVD off due to filth being flashed in my face with no permission ... lol ...

Our theatre was confused when the live feed got cut short at the end, and being in the animation business myself, I would have liked a little music to cut the quiet ... but I think it must have been intentional to allow for any spontanious discussions amongst the strangers in the room.

I whole heartedly believe in preaching the Gospel when called to do so, but you have to allow room for "educational history" and the overwelming facts to sink in first, and I think this was Camerons take.

IT'S STARTS IN OUR OWN HEARTS ... our own homes ... and when those are following God's directions as best we can, THEN we look outward to save the sinner who does not know. The Christian movement seems to have forgotten this ... and focus more on how to stop the gay guy, or the abortion ... before they have cleaned there own "storehouses of transgressions".

It was simple ... and I really enjoyed it! Thanx Cameron! Hope the movie makes it National and others get to do the inner, self reflection that I think your trying to inspire.

Remember Christians ... if we want more Christian content in movies and in the threatres and on TV ... then we need to support the brave souls willing to walk out on the plank and give us some. So they may make a couple mistakes ... GIVE 'EM a break! You critizise too harshly, and fewer and fewer people will have the gumption to give you the entertainment content you so desperately complain in lacking.

Pastor Terrence said...

Thank you, Jon, for a well-balanced review. I think David Barton was just trying to emphasize the fact that there are not many copies existing of that particular Bible and that most people have not seen or heard of it. I agree that Glenn Beck's appearance, or at least his comments,which confuse the "gods" of Mormonism with the one true God, was a mistake. It is good that he was only a part of the live feed and does not appear in the film itself. I also thought there would be a more pointed Gospel message, but the movie is more directed toward "Christians." I believe the point was made throughout the film that true morality, evangelists, law, justice, mercy, education, wisdom, liberty, and peace can only truly come about when true faith in the one true God, the God of the Bible, is the foundation upon which they are built. Also, it was demonstrated time and time again that it was not so much political prowess, but love of God and the prime importance and power of God-honoring families, etc., that built our nation. I believe it is possible that Kirk's obscure conclusion was intentional. By stating that it does not begin at "the White House," but "Your House" and leaving the rest open, I believe it encourages families to seek God and His Word, and to be strengthened internally, while also being "free" to obey the convictions given to them by God and His Word, instead of just following the mandate of a movie. Like Kirk stated, he desires for it to be more than a movie, but a movement. These things could have been a bit more structured and the points reaffirmed in a more pointed way, leading to a solid presentation of the Gospel. Even so, I believe it was a fantastic film and that future resources will be extremely helpful, especially for families. Again, thank you for this review. I will definitely share it with others, as it reflects my thoughts on it, as well. God Bless!

Angela said...

So, I thought you had some good insights, but you lost me with your negative reaction to Glen Beck's comments. I thought they were appropriate and added to the discussion atmosphere Kirk is promoting with Monumental. I consider myself a Glen Beck neutral, so I'm not a fan defending him, just a little perplexed by yours and other’s reactions to him. Also, the comment about evangelicals or the other Christians praying to a different God than Mormons really threw me into confusion. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon), and I pray to the god of the Bible. I don't have any disregard for you or any other member of the evangelical community. In fact, I'm so grateful we see so many things similarly, especially about our faith in Christ and our commitment to His gospel. I find Cameron a great inspiration and beacon of hope. I felt after last night’s showing (which I saw) that we can all band together to work in order to maintain this great nation and the freedoms that come from our Christian faith. I just don't think I pray to a different God, even if we have doctrinal differences. God Bless us all - with His perfection our weaknesses can bring humility, not divisiveness!!!

fisherwoman said...

I left with some of the same thoughts, Jon. "At least share the Gospel"-and don't wait til the end! Also agree about Beck. Barton is also teamed up w Beck.

Angela, go here for how Mormonism is not Christianity. If you have a different Jesus, you have a different Gospel.

Anne Isom said...

Thank you, Angela, for your comments. I too, am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I am a Christian. I pray to the one true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Bible. I was very inspired by Cameron's movie and was so happy to be in a room of like minded people.

Jon Speed said...

Anne and Angela,

In 2010 I did a formal public dialogue with an LDS friend who is a PhD candidate at the University of North Texas. The dialogue was held at the LDS Institute near the UNT campus.

In preparation for that dialogue, one of the main questions we discussed was "Is the LDS Christian?". In fact, in the dialogue itself, we discussed the question.

I still hold to what I stated back then. The LDS position on the nature of God and the person of Jesus Christ are absolutely contrary to what the Bible teaches about the nature of God the Father and God the Son. To say that we pray to the same God is similar to saying that Allah and the God of the Bible, or God and Vishnu, are the same. They are fundamentally different. The Book of Isaiah teaches repeatedly that God does not change. Mormonism says that he has changed from a human to a deity. The Bible says that Jesus is eternal God. Mormonism says that Jesus had a beginning and that he is the brother of Satan. What we think about God is the most important thing about us. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 teaches that idolaters (those who worship false gods) will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

In the end, while my LDS friend disagreed with me, he saw the reasoning behind why evangelical Christians cannot accept the LDS conception of God. I do not begrudge the LDS the right to assemble for worship. I do not think it is intellectually or theologically accurate to say that we worship the same god.

Angela said...

Hi Jon,
Well, I do acknowledge that we have some different views of doctrine about God's eternal nature, but those differences are far less critical than our similarities. Would you not agree that our common belief that our Heavenly Father's existence, goodness, and involvement in the progress of those who bring honest hearts is more powerful than a debate over how he came to be God? Would you not agree that our common belief that He is the law giver and our obedience brings us closer to His peace, love, and joy? How about the common conviction that His son, Jesus Christ, is our guide and deliverer through Christ’s atonement? Our common ground is powerful! The details do not separate us as much as you may now believe. A discussion of those details is a fine discussion, but in the spirit of Monumental let’s save it for another time. This is a time for unity where it can be found.

Jon Speed said...

Angela: Your view of god disqualifies him from existing. The word "truth" means "reality." The god that is not true does not exist and therefore there is no basis for common ground. We have none. That is the point of my criticism of Beck's inclusion. Beck was speaking of praying to a god that does not exist and using a supposed answer from this non-existent god as encouragement to keep fighting the fight for conservative values.

Angela, the Book of Mormon teaches that you are saved "after all you can do." We have no common ground in the atonement either. The Biblical teaching of the atonement teaches that the one who repents and trusts Jesus is credited with Jesus' perfect righteousness--His obedience to the Law of God. Nothing can be added to that. Membership in the LDS church or baptism by an LDS authority cannot add anything to our standing with God through Jesus Christ alone.

The only common ground we have is: 1) we are Americans and 2) we need the righteousness of Jesus Christ on the day of judgment. Someone who trusts in the LDS church for righteousness does not have it.

As a side note, it is ironic to me that some LDS will defend Kirk's movie against criticism because of Beck's involvement. If we changed the movie to include the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ and remove Beck's involvement from the live feed, would you still be as interested in promoting it?

fisherwoman said...

@Shawn, What Scriptures would you use to show that this country is under God's judgment and wrath? Does Romans speak to nations collectively, or to individuals?But is the "God gave them over" a past tense judgment God has rendered to humanity-condemned already judgement as per John 3? Are their nations God judged after He judged Israel? (Matt 23: 38) I ask in sincerity,as I have been studying this. I know Macarthur has a sermon entitled "When God Abandons a Nation" . I asked a pastor recently if he believes God judges nations still, and he said no. Thanks.

Angela said...

Wow Jon,
This speech does sadden me because it is not true and because it seems you feel better digging moats between us rather than building bridges. I do not accept your "clipped" interpretation of the Book of Mormon. I feel you stop at the “after all you can do” without realizing that Mormons deeply believe they are dependent on the grace of Christ for eternal blessings. Please read 2 Nephi 31. I'll quote a portion, "And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path [repentance and baptism], I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you nay; for ye have not come this far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save." Stopping at “after all you can do” diminishes how central the grace and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is to my faith. I do good works-yes. You do, too. We both feel this comes from our love of God and His son, and our desire to remain repentant and follow His example. I don’t think there is anything I could do to save myself. I am 100% dependent on His mercy and power to lift and save my wretched soul. I want to others to understand the truth of my convictions. I want to understand yours as well. So, I’ll ponder what you’ve shared with me and pray to know the truthfulness of it all. Thanks for sharing and letting me share, too.

Angela said...

Sorry, I meant to add:

Jon,
This speech does sadden me because it is not true and because it seems you feel better digging moats between us rather than building bridges. I do not accept your "clipped" interpretation of the Book of Mormon. I feel you stop at the “after all you can do” without realizing that Mormons deeply believe they are dependent on the grace of Christ for eternal blessings. Please read 2 Nephi 31. I'll quote a portion, "And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path [repentance and baptism], I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you nay; for ye have not come this far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save." Stopping at “after all you can do” diminishes how central the grace and atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is to my faith. I do good works-yes. You do, too. We both feel this comes from our love of God and His son, and our desire to remain repentant and follow His example. I don’t think there is anything I could do to save myself. I am 100% dependent on His mercy and power to lift and save my wretched soul. I want to others to understand the truth of my convictions. I want to understand yours as well. So, I’ll ponder what you’ve shared with me and pray to know the truthfulness of it all. Thanks for sharing and letting me share, too.

Angela said...

okay, third times a charm. This is what I wanted to add:

By-the-way, I would absolutely support Kirk Cameron’s efforts. I’ve actually heard him disqualify my religion as you have, but I still see his goodness. I whole-heartedly support that goodness, even when he and you misunderstand me and the God I worship.

Moderator said...

thank you for your review and comments Jon. I thought it was accurate. However, I think he was saying it's a rare old book still in existence showing Christianity with govt support, which showed the founders were believers and upheld the Bible and Christ, and His morality. I think that was his point. :)

Sherri Vada said...

I felt an urgent sense of sorrow when the film had ended, as I see how far we have gotten away from the founding principles of our great country. I feel robbed of our heritage. No one could move from there seats after the documentary ended, we were all in awe we were frozen in our seats, we eventually began discussing our issues we face in America and having wonderful discussions about our country. It is up to us believers to reinforce the foundation of America that has kept her so blessed, so vibrant. I am sad how we have stripped Christ out of everything He has done for us/USA. Imagine omitting Picasso from his art pieces times that by a trillion. Every American and every person entering this great Nation of God MUST WATCH this film! It is time for a change to come.

fisherwoman said...

Anne/Angela:

Mormon doctrine:

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (1 Ne. 3:7; 2 Ne. 25:23; Alma 5:27-8; 11:37; 34:33-5; Moroni 10:32; D&C 1:24-33; 25:15-6; 42:18-29; 58:34-43; 82:5-7; 3rd Article of Faith; Gospel Principles, 74-8 [1997 edition]; and 122-7).

Christian doctrine:

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith, not of works, since no one is good enough to earn it from an all-holy Judge. If this is genuine faith, then it is automatically demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Ibid.; Rom. 3:23-28; 4:5; 11:6; Gal. 3:11, 23-6, and 5:6; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-3; and James 2:14-26, NAS).

http://mormoninfo.org/

Dale Jackson said...

Here is Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort dealing with the subject of Mormonism and how it is NOT Christian:

http://youtu.be/6vWl9_95puw

This DVD is located here: http://www.livingwaters.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=362&category_id=25&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=199&lang=en

Kirk knows that Glenn Beck is NOT a Christian. Here is what he says on his FB post.

"I hope to continue my friendship with Glenn and others in the media to impact and inspire them with the glorious, victorious, unstoppable gospel."

Christians CAN be friends with the unsaved. Jesus was a friend to sinners.

However, Beck's statement of "our lord" or "our god" in the Live segment was truly disturbing. Because the god in Mormonism is NOT the god of the Bible.

yopartstom said...

@Sherri

I would highly suggest you watch on Youtube "The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers" before being so excited about this film.

Angela said...

Fisherwoman,

Well, I guess what I am trying to say it that I agree with you that we are saved not by our efforts, but by God's power to save us.

Mosiah 2:21 (BOM) "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another-I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all he requires of you is that ye keep his commandments;"

So, you see, we both believe in keeping god's commandments (right?) to the best of our ability, repenting when we don't measure up to that goal, and ultimately relying on the atonement for forgiveness and salvation.

I guess I am under the impression that other Christians that are not Mormon believe in obeying God's commandments, repenting when they fall short, and thereby standing in need of grace for final acceptance into His kingdom, which is a glorious place of love, truth, and righteousness. I don't see how these two views are different??? I guess I'm not agreeing that Mormons think they are saved by their works. We think works are just a part of being a follower of Christ. Could this be a misconception that evangelicals have about Mormon beliefs?

Lance said...

Angela, is it not true in Mormon doctrine that there are some sins that the blood of Jesus Christ cannot atone for?

Moderator said...

I'm kinda wondering why no one talked kirk out of having gb on. it shocked me and my husband, and It's perplexing ....since he did a WOTM segment showing lds is a cult. I agree with Dale too. I think Kirk may have been trying to tap into the pro America folks that were following gb's history shows (and secretly named "gathering" events back when it was shrouded in mystery). But knowing this was about America and Christianity, I wouldn't have invited gb on, just like Todd said way back on wotmr we can go preach at their events and such, but we don't invite the darkness into ours, as people will be decieved. I feel for Kirk right now, but think if he would have sought biblical godly advice from godly men about gb.... All the Monumental talk online and between believers wouldn't be about gb, it would be focused where it should be.... On the content of the documentary and the battle cry to take America back, teach our kids the truth about our American history and see what info is coming up that's going to help. However, even man's failings are used by God. Perhaps talk around the country about the Mormonism cult will teach Christians, and they won't vote Romeny (I'm just sayin.). Keeping all of this in prayer.

Angela said...

Well Dale,

All I can say is that I do read the Bible (King James version). When I say my prayers throughout the day, I picture the same being who led the Israelites out of Egypt and the being who sent His son, Jesus Christ, to Mary and Joseph to be raised as the Savior of the world. I love all scripture. I am only human, so I still have much to learn about Heavenly Father, His son, and the gospel in the scriptures. I'd like to think we have much in common, but many of you responding seem to not like the connections we might have. So, I don't know how else to convince you that I'm not as different from you as you think. Maybe it's just time for me to let it be and hope for better understanding down the road between a Mormon Christian and another denomination of Christian. Take Care

Dale Jackson said...

Angela here is what Kirk says about Mormonism. He is teaching right along with his cohost Ray Comfort.

"If you've ever spoken to a Mormon, sometimes you can know how frustrating it can be when they use the same words you do, but they mean something different and you're not sure how to finish the conversation. Well, we found it's good to leave them with a clear distinction. Tell them, if the Mormon religion is right and I'm wrong, then I go to the third heaven. But if the Bible is right and the LDS Church is wrong, then you are following a false "Jesus" and you'll end up in Hell forever." ~Kirk Cameron from The Way of the Master episode: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.

If you don't believe me, watch this.

http://youtu.be/6vWl9_95puw

Angela said...

Lance,

My understanding is that you would have to have a sure conviction of who Christ was and his divinity and then deny Him. I believe you'd have to be an ani-Christ, which to my understanding would not fit many people's situation. But honestly, I don't think of most sin in the terms of being out of the reach of Christ's atonement. I feel He has reached out to all sinners with a broad sweep. If I were visiting a prison full of rapists and murders, I'd encourage them and us all to always plead with our Lord for forgiveness and His mercy to heal our hearts and help us overcome sin. What do you think?

Angela said...

Hi Dale,

I know that is what Kirk and his friend think a Mormon would say . . . "the going to a third heaven thing." Here's what an actual, active Mormon is saying (this is me): I leave where myself and the next person (whatever their creed) end up completely up to God. I really don't pretend to be able to judge where someone will end up. I know where Kirk & co. get this idea. We do believe heaven has three degrees of glory. However, the final judge is Christ as to who goes where. I just wouldn't make that call. So, do you really think I'll go to Hell? I don't think so. I'm banking on me making it at least to the "third heaven," and I"m striving and praying for the "first heaven."

Also, this makes one of my points. "A Mormon can be frustrating because they use the same words." We use the same words because we are more alike than different, which I keep trying to say. However, it may just really freak you out to think we have things in common, so I kinda give up. But I like our discussion.

Jon Speed said...

Angela, the same words that you use have different meanings.

1--"Repentance". In the LDS conception, this would include membership in the LDS church and baptism.

2--"Jesus". Half brother of Satan, a god like other gods, and with a definite beginning.

3--"God". An evolved man, perhaps Adam depending on who you talk to. The Trinity is denied.

4--"Salvation": Is never sure based on traditional LDS teaching, as opposed to the new stuff coming out of BYU from a few professors who are not giving approved LDS doctrine.

5--"Hell"--doesn't exist unless you are a Jack Mormon who has denied the LDS faith. So my odds of going to Hell actually increase if I become LDS.

6--"Heaven". One of three levels where you become a god (if you are a man).

We have as much in common as Hindus.

fisherwoman said...

Angela, you said:

Mosiah 2:21 (BOM) "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another-I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all he requires of you is that ye keep his commandments;"


________________________
Angela, the Mormon god doesn't exist. This is a description of the mormon "god":

There are many Gods for other worlds, and each God is equal to the God of this world in terms of His nature.
There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and on those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world. So there is only one God for us, and this God is typically referred to as the Heavenly Father. Mormons may also speak of the term "God" in reference to "the Godhead," which is a team of separate Gods (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Fielding Smith, ed., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; Abraham 4:1, Pearl of Great Price; Gospel Principles, 245 [1997 edition], and 302; "God," LDS Bible Dictionary; and Blake Ostler, "Review of The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis by Francis J. Beckwith and Stephen E. Parrish," FARMS Review of Books [Provo, UT: FARMS, 1996], 99-146).

The God of the Bible says there is only One God: "Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else." Deuteronomy 4: 39

Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.Nehemiah 9: 6

Unknown said...

Jon,

I'll respond to the idea that our words have different meanings one at a time:

1--"Repentance". In the LDS conception, this would include membership in the LDS church and baptism.

Well, yes I do believe in saving ordinances that require priesthood authority that comes from God-like baptism. However, if you, Jon, repent in your way and pass to the other side tomorrow, I'm sure God will provide you with the place in heaven that you feel most comfortable, whatever that is. Ultimately, I believe He wants to give us the best we will receive from Him. And I don't assume anything, like that I would be in a better place at all or that you wouldn't be either.

2--"Jesus". Half brother of Satan, a god like other gods, and with a definite beginning.

Well, this will be fun. Actually, I don't think we distinguish between half brother or full. We were all spirit children in heaven and Lucifer fell from Grace and became Satan. Yeah, that is a big doctrinal difference, but it still doesn't mean to me that we pray to a different God. It just means that there are details about the God of the Bible that we disagree on. You say I"m praying to a non-existent God, but I've felt him nurture my soul and protect me from physical harm. He is very real to me. I could call him Allah or Vishnu and it wouldn't matter to Him because he knows I love Him and I can tell he loves me.

3--"God". An evolved man, perhaps Adam depending on who you talk to. The Trinity is denied.

The Adam thing is not correct LDS doctrine. Heavenly Father is not Adam. Heavenly Father is separate from Jesus Christ, his son. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being, but they all three act with one heart and mind in that they are unified (kinda like a wish Mormons and Evangelicals could be:) So, yes, we see the trinity differently. That doesn't mean we both don't worship Jesus as our Savior or feel the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We just have a different idea about if we are experiencing them as separate beings or not.

4--"Salvation": Is never sure based on traditional LDS teaching, as opposed to the new stuff coming out of BYU from a few professors who are not giving approved LDS doctrine.

I'm not familiar with the BYU professors stuff. I guess you may feel more sure about your salvation than I do mine. I feel pretty hopeful though.

5--"Hell"--doesn't exist unless you are a Jack Mormon who has denied the LDS faith. So my odds of going to Hell actually increase if I become LDS.

Hmmm . . . this just doesn't sound right. It might take to much explaining, but it just sounds not like anything I believe. In case, you want to know what we really believe. It is a bit shocking to hear some of the things you think I believe.

6--"Heaven". One of three levels where you become a god (if you are a man).

Well, actually yes, as I mentioned before we believe heaven has "many mansions" or glories. The highest being where God the Eternal Father lives. The very reassuring thing to me is that woman can obtain godhood, too. Godhood is something quite far away for me I'm sure. I have a feeling I've got a lot of progressing beyond this life before I'd be ready for such a position. Still, me becoming a god doesn't seem to take away from the fact that I have a Heavenly Father. I think I'd always look to him for guidance no matter how exalted my thoughts and actions became.

We have as much in common as Hindus.

Well, I don't know if that is actually the case, but I might have an easier time convincing a Hindu that we did ;)

Unknown said...

Jon,

I'll respond to the idea that our words have different meanings one at a time:

1--"Repentance". In the LDS conception, this would include membership in the LDS church and baptism.

Well, yes I do believe in saving ordinances that require priesthood authority that comes from God-like baptism. However, if you, Jon, repent in your way and pass to the other side tomorrow, I'm sure God will provide you with the place in heaven that you feel most comfortable, whatever that is. Ultimately, I believe He wants to give us the best we will receive from Him. And I don't assume anything, like that I would be in a better place at all or that you wouldn't be either.

2--"Jesus". Half brother of Satan, a god like other gods, and with a definite beginning.

Well, this will be fun. Actually, I don't think we distinguish between half brother or full. We were all spirit children in heaven and Lucifer fell from Grace and became Satan. Yeah, that is a big doctrinal difference, but it still doesn't mean to me that we pray to a different God. It just means that there are details about the God of the Bible that we disagree on. You say I"m praying to a non-existent God, but I've felt him nurture my soul and protect me from physical harm. He is very real to me. I could call him Allah or Vishnu and it wouldn't matter to Him because he knows I love Him and I can tell he loves me.

3--"God". An evolved man, perhaps Adam depending on who you talk to. The Trinity is denied.

The Adam thing is not correct LDS doctrine. Heavenly Father is not Adam. Heavenly Father is separate from Jesus Christ, his son. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being, but they all three act with one heart and mind in that they are unified (kinda like a wish Mormons and Evangelicals could be:) So, yes, we see the trinity differently. That doesn't mean we both don't worship Jesus as our Savior or feel the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We just have a different idea about if we are experiencing them as separate beings or not.

4--"Salvation": Is never sure based on traditional LDS teaching, as opposed to the new stuff coming out of BYU from a few professors who are not giving approved LDS doctrine.

I'm not familiar with the BYU professors stuff. I guess you may feel more sure about your salvation than I do mine. I feel pretty hopeful though.

5--"Hell"--doesn't exist unless you are a Jack Mormon who has denied the LDS faith. So my odds of going to Hell actually increase if I become LDS.

Hmmm . . . this just doesn't sound right. It might take to much explaining, but it just sounds not like anything I believe. In case, you want to know what we really believe. It is a bit shocking to hear some of the things you think I believe.

6--"Heaven". One of three levels where you become a god (if you are a man).

Well, actually yes, as I mentioned before we believe heaven has "many mansions" or glories. The highest being where God the Eternal Father lives. The very reassuring thing to me is that woman can obtain godhood, too. Godhood is something quite far away for me I'm sure. I have a feeling I've got a lot of progressing beyond this life before I'd be ready for such a position. Still, me becoming a god doesn't seem to take away from the fact that I have a Heavenly Father. I think I'd always look to him for guidance no matter how exalted my thoughts and actions became.

We have as much in common as Hindus.

Well, I don't know if that is actually the case, but I might have an easier time convincing a Hindu that we did ;)

Unknown said...

Fisherwoman,

We have a lot to learn about the universe. It is a vast entity that could easily hold more than one exalted being. I don't focus on any other gods. I really only know of the three in the trinity, but one day in the next life I look forward to understanding more about other worlds. I'm pretty content to just follow the teachings of Christ and pray to Heavenly Father right now. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image after our likeness . . ." note the words us and our.

John 14:28 Jesus speaking, "my Father is greater than I" This sounds like two separate beings to me.

Acts 7:55-56 Stephen as he was being stoned "but he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly in the heaven, and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." Again, this sounds like separate beings that are working with one purpose.

Ephesians 5:14-19 This one is a great conclusion which I am too lazy to write, but worth looking up.

I realize we probably aren't changing each other's minds, but I do hope you might consider that there is a possibility that truth can be found in unexpected places.

Sincerely,
Angela

bondservant4jesuschrist said...

Thanks for the good review, it's better than I would have said it I think.

I am disappointed that they didn't preach the gospel and also that Glenn Beck was in the intro.

But the way he concluded the plea was weird, because I didn't know it was done on purpose that it just cuts out and then links to the "Demand the Movie," website.

People in the theater some left after a while, but me and my friend Kimmie waited a while, because we thought there was gonna be more.

I hope that this will be more than a movie thing and will get people to hear the gospel. I did here that one person I know he preached the gospel after the show ended in his area, where he watched it, so that was good.

If I would have known it wasn't gonna preach the gospel I would have probably gave out gospel tracts or do something more afterwards.

I hope and pray people will preach the gospel when it comes out in more theaters. Maybe I hope to get an opportunity myself. Thanks again for the review and everybody's comments.

Rob Hughes said...

I haven't seen the film yet, but this seemed like a balanced and fair review. Very helpful.

Mr. Parker said...

Brannon Howse said he tried to warn Kirk back in 2010 when he got started on this movie but kirk would not listen. I'm quiet dissapointed with kirk. You can appear with beck when he is talking that god talk. It gives the believers the idea that u are partnering with him. The funny thing is that the only people who sees kirk in error here are the unknown everyday bible believing. Ever discerning Christian. Your big Christian radio and tv stations will give him a pass. There are still 7,000 who have bowed the knee to Glenn Beck.

Shirley said...

"Wow" to all the comments here. I am a born again Christian and have been in many evangelical churches in my lifetime. While I read here about the Mormons and their differences in doctrinal beliefs (which I am in agreement with), the huge thought going through my mind is this: We evangelicals are so hung up on being in the "right" church with the "right" doctrine, but has anyone noticed the complacency and lukewarmness that has silently slipped in and settled in our sanctuaries?

Has anyone noticed that in our "seeker-friendly" churches, SIN isn't being addressed as it used to because it might be too offensive and we might lose people. And hell, too. It's almost as tho hell doesn't exist anymore even though it is the consequence for those who do not believe and come to true repentance in Jesus Christ.

Joel Osteen is the preacher of the largest church in the United States, and he has boldly said on TV to Larry King that he is not qualified to teach Scripture because "that is just not his gift." I am amazed that I don't hear Christians standing up and speaking out about this "evangelical" preacher, but yet we are more than willing to blast Glenn Beck because he is a Mormon. I don't listen to Beck because he is a Mormon; I listen to him because he tells the truth about what is going on in the world.

What is wrong with us? I am all for standing firm in my faith that Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word was with God in the beginning and that the Word is God and I will never back down from believing in the power of the Holy Spirit which is part of this Trinity and where the essence of our truth comes from ... but oh, my word! Why would I ever NOT listen to a man who is a Mormon who is putting his life on the line to help ALL the rest of us?

I totally disagree with the Lutheran faith that says my son could not have communion at his wedding to his Lutheran bride ... but do we throw Dietrich Bonhoffer aside as a heathen when he could not get other pastors to help him save the Jews???

In church and on Facebook, the silence is deafening when it comes to evangelical Christians sharing the truth of Jesus Christ; His truth that offends. We have traded in the command to preach the gospel for this: "Let's pray about that."

To be perfectly honest, it was 2 Mormon men who came to my door over 30 years ago and questioned me about where I'd be if I died that night and I couldn't tell them I would be in Heaven because I didn't know. That encounter was the turning point in my life where I realized that my evangelical (pentecostal, brethren in Christ and everything else) had done nothing for me and I didn't know if I was saved or not even tho I had asked Jesus in my heart and had been baptized. My life changed that day, and I will forever thank those 2 young Mormon men who dared to confront me about my faith.

Shirley said...

I have just a bit more to add. If we evangelicals have this so right, why are so many of us taking our chlidren to see "Hunger Games?" Because it is given 3 1/2 stars by Focus on the Family and Christianity Today? When is it EVER right for Christians to take children to see children killing children??? Oh, yes. Because there is a powerful message of forgiveness in there and maybe, just maybe people will see Jesus in it. I say, how about if we just teach and preach the truth to our children? I say, how about we evangelicals take another look at Deut. 6 and ask if that describes how we trained our children spiritually. Talk to most Christians today and you will hear, "the Bible is too difficult to understand." Thus, we have outsourced the faith and spiritual training over to the church. I know this because I did it too. I didn't know it was possible for parents to follow Deut 6. I know it now, but most Christians don't. Talk to Christians. Ask how they taught their children about the Holy Spirit. Far too many (like myself) didn't because we didn't understand it myself. Yes, we have this doctrine thing down absolutely correct, but we have failed at being obedient to Deut 6 and our children have paid the price.

Jon Speed said...

So Shirley, are you a Mormon or evangelical? Just trying to understand your comments.

Shirley said...

I am a born again Christian who disagrees with Mormon doctrine but also cannot understand why the evangelical, protestant churches want to settle for a watered down Gospel of Jesus Christ. I can't understand why we want to spend so much time criticizing other doctrines when we would be better off taking a good hard look at our own and seeing how far off base many of us are. Why don't we require more of our own churches before trying to prove others wrong?

Shirley said...

... I didn't mean to imply the Mormons led me to Christ. It was the anger what welled up in me because these people were out peddling their faith and I didn't like it because I was a Christian. Problem was, I couldn't say "yes I would go to Heaven" because I did not have that assurance. And it was my anger that made me realize something was wrong in my own heart. It was a process after that encounter that led me to talking to God on my own and asking Him why I was so confused about my own faith. Now that I know who I am in Jesus Christ, I can freely listen to Glenn Beck and benefit from his gleanings w/o thinking that I shouldn't be listening to a Mormon. Evidently Kirk can do the same and I applaud him for that.

Angela said...

Hi Shirley,

I feel I can listen openly and easily to you or Kirk or other like-minded born again Christians. When you've done the wrestle with yourself and the Spirit to come to a place where you aren't attacking my faith or beliefs, it makes it so that I can take you more seriously because it's just an honest sharing of our differences. Hopefully, we can not always focus on those, but find a oneness in points we do agree on. I admire and use as my mentors other Christians, but I'd take lessons from any good person. I can't speak highly enough of Dietrich Bonhoffer or the ten Booms. I guess I see open dialogue that is unifying between denominations as a genuine effort to truly knit our hearts in love in order to prepare us individually and collectively to receive Christ at His second coming. Wouldn't He gather us all around Him and give us His truth. He would take all of us at our different levels of understanding and clear up any misunderstandings. Anyhow, I thought you sounded fair towards Mormons. They were probably were just wanting to share the good news of the gospel like so many other Christian missionaries. It's me another Mormon.

halfpint512 said...

Great and honest review. Thanks for that. I was also at the live show and felt that it would have been better to leave Beck out of it. I also am sorry about your experience... it only takes one guy to make things weird, and you got him! My theater was also cut off suddenly, but everyone just sat in silence for the longest time. Just really no words. I appreciated that Kirk was clear over and over on our nations need to return to God. I can see your point of wanting a gospel message preached, but in this day and age, the message is easily obtained by anyone who truly wants it. I guess it was a good way to also not cause doctrinal divide as we do not need yet another thing to divide us. I was watching the crowd and I could see at first they were a bit surprised at the overt Christian introduction... but soon were nodding in agreement. Our theater eventually and quietly exited, and then many gathered in little groups to chat in the hallway. It was an amazing movie.

Shirley said...

Thank you, Angela. One of the most visited posts on my blog is the one where I wrote about "Religionless" (real name is "Religulous" but I misunderstood it). In this I write about being in agreement with Bill Mahrar, one of the most disgusting, perverted atheists in the world. When we take a good, hard look at the Church, and if we are honest, we are a mess and we can see why people trash us. We say one thing but live differently. Not so? Ask a child what is most important to his parents and he will tell you. There are reasons these big seeker-friendly churches are growing like they are and one is that SOME will teach the Bible accurately, but not the parts that will make people get up and walk out. Calling sin for what it is, SIN, and naming sin by name won't make for big numbers. Neither will the word HELL, so we just tiptoe around it.

If we evangelicals were really living out the doctrine as we believe it, we wouldn't have to look so hard to find churches that teach the Bible without making it so easy to digest. Thus, we flock to the seeker friendly church because it's our best bet. Not saying there are not really good, Bible teaching churches that actually teach in a way that causes one to wrestle with the Holy Spirit as you said, just saying they are very difficult to find and that speaks volumes about who we are. When we are truly born again, you won't hear us trashing the Mormons, because we will be so busy sharing Christ, we won't have the time ... or desire.

The Christians who are bashing Beck instead of listening to what he is saying are missing out. Today I am teaching my grandchildren history to my grandkids because Beck suggested that we grandparents stop serving ourselves and do more for our grandkids. That led to me getting serious about teaching them the Bible and that led me to a wonderful Bible that Ruth Graham used for her kids. Not a fluffy, fun Bible, but an old-school, meat-filled Bible that by today's standards would qualify for an adult Bible. If more of us Christians realized the need for us to stop the habitual busyness and start teaching our kids/grandkids as did Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they would be growing up and not turning away from God ... like I did. (The Child's Story Bible, by Catherine Vos. I recommend it for children up to 110 years old.)

As Shawn said, "I am talking about True Born Again, blood bought followers of Jesus Christ, need to stand up and proclaim the Gospel." He obviously sees the complacency in Christianity too. And if we don't even know how to do this in our own homes, we are in deep, deep trouble. My grandchildren, 6 & 8, can now explain the Trinity better than most adult believers I know.

I cannot count how many times I've been told, "But you are gifted, Shirley. That's why you can share like you do." Are you kidding me?????? It's obedience to the truth of Jesus Christ that makes His Word come alive, and when one has truly been impacted with His Word, he/she becomes JUST like the woman at the well who absolutely could not keep His words to herself. She had to run to tell everyone she knew. Like Joel Osteen, the church has failed to understand that when we know His truth, even part of His truth, we are not only called, but commanded to share it.

Okay ... think I'm done again!

heidi f said...

jon,
it is people like you who attack other good people with good intentions in the name of 'GOD', that make people like my brother blame every evil act or war on christianity. your blindness in hate is obscuring the point of this movie, which is bring this country back to its christian roots. and to answer your question "If we changed the movie to include the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ and remove Beck's involvement from the live feed, would you still be as interested in promoting it?" as a practicing LDS, I had NO clue glenn beck would be in the intro of the movie at all. and I will always support a good cause that is based on christian principles.
and to futher my confusion, I do not understand, do evangelical not consider baptist christian? because in my private baptist school education, i was taught that we are all children of God and furthermore that Christ and lucifer were brothers, so???? are they not christian either?
shirley, thanks for bringing the topic back to the for-front.
I hope that we can all stop the back-biting and unite in one common goal- to save this country and restore it!

Jon Speed said...

Heidi,

There are no good people. As Jesus said, only God is good.

I am a Baptist pastor, and if your Baptist school told you that we are all children of God, they lied. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the children of God, even to those who believe on His name." For a real shocker, go ahead and read John 1:13.

Anyone who stands for truth these days is branded as a hater. Bear in mind that this comes right after your loving accusation regarding your brother's unbelief, laying it at my feet.

Jesus said, "Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil." Romans 1:18 states that the godless suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Your brother, and every atheist, suppresses what they know to be true because they love to sin.

I will not unite with the LDS to save this country. Why? The LDS predict an "end of the world" scenario wherein the great saviors will be the LDS church. False prophet Brigham Young predicted an attack on the Constitution which would result in a call to Mormon elders to rescue it. Beck's, and many other LDS leaders' involvement in conservatism is simply an attempt to bring in a utopia that is based on a god who does not exist and on a gospel which does not save.

"I am saying to you that to me the Constitution of the United States of America is just as much from my Heavenly Father as the Ten Commandments." LDS President George Albert Smith

"I reverence the Constitution of the United States as a sacred document. To me its words are akin to the revelations of God." LDS President Ezra Taft Benson

Joseph Smith told of a time when the Constitution would be "on the brink of ruin" and would be rescued by the Mormons.

Source: Hoyt W. Brewster Jr.'s "Behold, I Come Quickly: The Last Days and Beyond" Salt Lake City: Deseret Books, 1994. Pages 73-77

Partner with the LDS on their social agenda and you are partnering with their eschatological worldview, which is a lie. Truth matters. Motives matter. What fellowship does Christ have with Belial?

polymathis said...

FYI: a different review of the movie:

http://www.examiner.com/christian-perspectives-in-denver/monumental-zeal-a-review-of-kirk-cameron-s-movie-review

Linda said...

Well, I haven't watched the film myself. However, reading all the reviews-comments, I'm quite disappointed that Kirk would even allow Glenn Beck to appear at the beginning since it gives the false impression that we all worship the same God --we don't. It's lending credence to Mormonism and Kirk as a born again bona fide believer should not have allowed that. It will do more harm than good and will bring on America God's wrath and deeper spiritual blindness as is already the case. this Country is in a spiritual stupor and lacks knowing the difference between right and wrong much less their right foot from their left foot

Also, I don't agree with the statement that "it starts in our own hearts and at our own homes".

that's a very nebulous and ambiguous statement that is open for anyone's interpretation and any religious belief
No, the clear watershed moment always starts with the GOSPEL according to Scripture changing men and women's hearts.

the ONLY reason this nation was great at one time was because of the gospel according to Scripture .


syncretism is not the gospel. It vitiates the gospel whenever we lend credence to unbelievers in order to support a cause no matter how wonderful the cause may be.

For bona fide believers in Jesus Christ according to Scripture-- Trying to save American is not why God saved us and left us on this earth. This is not our home and Kirk as wonderful as it is to want a future for our children, this is not our future and this is not our home as Christians here on this earth. Kirk you’ve made a poor judgment that tacitly lends credence to Mormonism and left out the Gospel. Lack prudence by having affections on things on earth when God's word says to set our affections on things above

Shirley said...

Oh, it does start in our own hearts and in our own homes! Most of us were born into whatever faith we claim today. Some of us challenged that faith and sought the truth and some of us simply stayed with what we were handed from our parents.

For me to say that Glenn Beck or anyone else worships a God different than the one I worship would be the most judgmental thing I could do. In my (evangelical) home, my mother was the one who represented God to me and I have horrid memories of being whipped with a leather belt to the point where I couldn't bear the pain, and when she was done, she would scream at me to beg God to forgive me. If I didn't pray loud enough, the beating began again. So here is a little girl, crying from the pain, trying to pray out loud, while the belt is still thrashing and my mother is screaming, "Pray Louder!"

So which God was my mother forcing on me? The true God or another god? I believe it was the One true God who sent His Son to save us from our sins, but she was completely misinformed and this transferred over to me as an adult believer. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I believed in wasn't God anyone else would want because I had a completely false representation of who He was, and I had a horrible anger problem. And I did not learn who He truly was in my church as a young adult away from my mother's clutches. It was in seeking HIM on my own, that I learned who He was and the first thing He revealed to me was that angry people are no different than people who murder (Mt. 5).

Asking Jesus into our hearts and then calling ourselves "Christian" does not make us authentic Christians; it is costly to follow Him. Jesus clearly addresses that in Mt. 7:21-23. Yet, listen to us giving that very same message to others (all you need to do is believe in Him!) and calling it the plan of salvation. We (generally speaking) present a Gospel that is easy, but we won't call sin, SIN in our own hearts, in our own homes and in our own churches! I am surrounded by "Christian" people who won't dare confront sin because it might cost them friendships and relationships ... but they will blast Glenn Beck because of his Mormonism!

Shirley said...

When we say Beck worships another God, we make ourselves look like fools because only Beck and God know what is in Beck's heart. In the three years of listening to him, I have never, ever heard him promote Mormonism. If that is what he did at the beginning of the film, then that is bad news. If he did not, and I'm assuming he did not, then why is he being trashed? I will always present and stand on the absolute truth of Jesus Christ in any conversation between myself and Christians, Catholics, Mormons, etc., etc., but because I see the Church today (overall) looking more like the church of Laodicea than the Body of Christ we are called to be, I won't stand in judgement by saying people like Beck are worshipping another God. That's God's call. I live in Amish country and I don't believe in the faith they have, but there is a whole lot I can and have learned from them.

I have this very strong belief that almost all churches have completely disregarded Jesus' words to us in John 5 where He chastises us for "diligently studying the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life, yet you REFUSE to COME TO ME to have life." Throughout the Gospel, we hear Jesus telling us to come to Him, learn from Him, follow Him ... but we rely on our pastors, teachers, and the Sunday Schools to teach us. Anything else we want to know, like medical information or whatever, we diligently research online till we get the facts but when it comes to something like making sure we know the truth about Jesus Christ, we give that over to the "professionals." Something is very wrong in our churches if we are not being taught how to "feed on Him" for our truth, and based on the evidence I'm seeing, we're not.

I've learned that when I ask Jesus about EVERYTHING, He gives me straight, clear, and hard-to-swallow answers. When I ask pastors or other believers, I get various opinions. For me, I'm taking my spiritual training and guidance from Him only, but I'm not forgetting that God uses all kinds of vessels (people) to teach me valuable lessons. Had the two Mormons not shown up that day at my house, I shudder to think where I would be today in my relationship with God. I do not believe as Mormons do, but I can still learn a lot from them and have. Same is true with many evangelicals I come into contact with. If the monument was built by Masons, can we still learn from the words that are printed on it?

Lance said...

"It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

Colossians 2:13-14 NKJV

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Linda said...

Shirley said---"Oh, it does start in our own hearts and in our own homes! Most of us were born into whatever faith we claim today. Some of us challenged that faith and sought the truth and some of us simply stayed with what we were handed from our parents."end quote

If it starts in our hearts and that's what you truly believe then we are in deep trouble.~

God's word is very lucid about our hearts --Jer 17:9 "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Point is, if you're relying on your heart you cannot ever know that you are being deceived. Only God's word gives us solid truth to point us in the right direction~

when it comes to being born growing up in the faith you claim today---Jesus clearly said "you MUST be born again"-John 3:7. If you are NOT born again according to Scripture then you are still on the road to hell.
all your claiming is Americanized Christianity which is what most "Christians" in American assent to and they are LOST bound for a Christless eternity

--Christianity is not inherited or passed down to us??? If so then you've just made another grave error according to God's word~~Contrary to what you believe GOD says otherwise->

John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

As far as you saying that "For me to say that Glenn Beck or anyone else worships a God different than the one I worship would be the most judgmental thing I could do."-

Actually it is very judgmental but it is the correct judging AND the most loving thing to do to let someone know that they are hopeless and bound for an eternity in hell if they don't place their faith the the ONLY TRUE Jesus of History who shed his blood the only one who has the power to wash away ALL our sins and save us. False God's of our imaginations are powerless to save anyone because they don't EXIST! they are only in our minds--

The Christian's faith is not "faith" itself that saves us it is the RIGHT OBJECT that saves us that we receive. Christians faith is an objective faith not subjective.
If we have placed our faith in a god of our own imagination- our own making such that Mormonism has, they are lost and bound for hell. False Christs cannot save you or me.


It is Jesus (real historical Jesus who died on the cross and rose bodily from the grave 3 days later) who reveals the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22)-and since it is Jesus who reveals the Father, then it is essential -to having eternal life or not. obviously if a person has a false counterfeit Jesus he cannot reveal to you/me the Father and thus he is not saved--because then our object of faith is false-counterfeit.

Jesus also said "If you do not believe I am who I claim to be you will die in your sins"-

So it is essential to know who Jesus is and the only way you can know the truth and the true Jesus is through Scripture. Extra biblical writings cannot do that such as the "book of mormon"

Pray and ask God to show you the truth according to Scripture for only Scripture is God breathed and to grant you the fear of the Lord because apart from the fear of the Lord who alone knows our hearts we cannot know we are being deceived.

Shirley said...

There was a time when I didn't understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." I understand it now.

Linda said...

Shirley said-"There was a time when I didn't understand what Jesus meant when He said, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." I understand it now."

So when I gave you the word of God straight from Jesus' lips that you "must be born again" and when I gave you straight from the word of the living Almighty God that-"our hearts are deceitful and wicked above all things who can know it"--you reject it by misusing and abusing God's word and say you "understand" by wrenching a verse out and using it as an ad homenin?" That's not properly dividing God's word and the truth is still true. God's word should never be used to hammer people but to gently and lovingly lead them to the Savior Jesus Christ to be saved and who ALONE has the word of eternal life. Satan uses God's word just the same.

Like I said before we can all be deceived. the ONLY way we can KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt the TRUTH and that we are not deceived is to do what JESUS SAID "you MUST be born again" - "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." -Jn 8:31-32

I've simply passed down to you the words of God and if you don't like what HE has said we must do,,-- then you are in serious trouble. it is your eternal destiny and I care enough to warn you with the truth.

"He who scorns instruction will pay for it, but he who respects a command is rewarded."-Pr.13:13

"Folly delights a man who lacks judgment, but a man of understanding keeps a straight course."-Pr.15:21.

Jon Speed said...

Not to jump in on Linda and Angela's interesting conversation (right on, Linda), but I have to point this out. The LDS contingent seems to have gone silent since the connection to LDS eschatology and the Constitution has been bought up. Muy interestingo.

Authentic Connecticut Republican said...

The Mayflower Pilgrims weren't Puritans.
http://www.sail1620.org/history/articles/91-pilgrims-not-puritans.html

I was monumentally disappointed by the film.
http://authentic-connecticut-republican.blogspot.com/2012/04/monumental-disappointment.html

dawkwin said...

Enjoyed your book Jon.

It is hard to keep the Bible as the forefront when the flesh keeps wanting to jump in.

We are to die to ourselves.
Pride that we are anything but in desperate need of Jesus Christ alone lead many to rally behind very "christian" sounding causes.

America, Denominations, Republiccan/Democratic etc...it's a slippery slope.

I thank God for giving us His Son that whoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

What have we received that He did not give us...

Praise to God...as He has reveiled through His holy prophets and now His Son by His glorious Word.

Happy Resurrection Sunday/Easter...
Remember Peter and John at the tomb?...They weren't looking for eggs.

He IS Risen!!!

Angela said...

Hi Jon & Lance,

It's Angela here. I've just been busy with life, so I haven't been avoiding the topic of blood atonement, LDS attitudes towards the Constitution, or eschatology (cool word btw I almost just like the sounds it makes-who can resist a word that nearly makes you want to spit while pronouncing it).

Anyhow, let's start with lance's concern about blood atonement as preached by Brigham Young. The way I interpret it is that if you take someone's life in cold blood capital punishment is an important part of the murderer's repentance process. That may or may or may not be in agreement with what our current prophet, Thomas S. Monson would say. To be honest, it's not something we spend a lot of time discussing in our Sunday meetings. Most of us are not dealing with murderous hearts, so we're talking about the more common sins to repent of (pride, selfishness, etc). I need to study this more. I will say that LDS.org had over 900 articles when I typed in Blood Atonement. All of what I scanned were referring to the atonement made by Jesus Christ.

So, Latter-day Saints do love the strengths and inspired content of the Constitution, but that doesn't mean they have a greater allegiance to it or the United States over scripture or God's kingdom. Of course, the Creator of the Universe is our King and gets our primary devotion. As for coming to the aide of the Constitution, why not? And why not anyone who values freedom to do so. I see Cameron leading the procession and beating that drum. I care not if it is a Mormon, Evangelical, or Jew I'd support any cause that rang true to my spiritual ears.

Finally, the "end of the world"/eschatology stuff . . . The Lord talks about His second coming in the final weeks leading up to his death. He also describes the millennial phase of earth Revelations etc. Well, John does, but there are other references throughout scripture. So, what does an Evangelical have against the Earth and it's people experiencing something as peaceful and hopeful as Christ reigning in the
Millinnium?

Jon Speed said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Reformationrider said...

I hate to burst someones bubble but, the god that the mormons pray to is not the God of the Bible that I or any other true believer prays to....Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan! Mormons belief sysgtem is tad amount to fairy tales... I rest my case.....

Linda said...

Very true. And the only true historical book that is accurate and true is the Bible when it comes to the ONLY true historical Jesus and God.

Certainly, if Jesus lived his life in total submission to the word of God as Final Authority in his life which he did, I can rest assured to stake my life in total submission to the word of God as final Authority in my life as well. Jesus backed up his claims that all the bible says is true when he rose from the dead.

Joseph Smith is still dead in the grave and cannot back up what he wrote is true -he never will because it's false

Over and over Jesus cited from every major section of the O.T. Phrases like "Law or the Prophets" Mat. 5:17, and "Moses and ALL the Prophets" Luke 24:27 are used by Jesus to indicate the complete canon of Jewish Scripture.

I implore all Mormons to discard the book of Mormon and pick up the word of God-bible and ask God to reveal the truth to them.


"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."-Isaiah 8:20


"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him."-Psalm 18:30.

Ben said...

As I view it, Cameron's closing statement is unambiguous. He wants viewers to become involved by running for office, supporting Christian candidates and riding herd on those who are elected to foster the restoration of our national ideals.

The real national treasure is the ideals contained in the Declaration of Independence and temporarily secured by the Constitution.

Do you have a clue who put them there? Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Paul Revere had something in common. U.S. Grant, F.D.R. and H.S. Truman shared it. Do you have a clue what it is? A dozen signers of the Declaration were Freemasons.

This nation might be very different without the influence of Franklin & Washington.

Freemasonry is neither a cult nor a religion. It is a fraternity. It is not in competition with or opposed to Christianity.

Jon Speed said...

Ben,

Freemasons are most definitely a cult. Check out the first five degrees in any Freemason state monitor and you will find five points which are in absolute contradiction to the gospel of Jesus Christ. This in spite of the fact that many professing Christians claim that Freemasonry is Christian. If it is, then why does it consider members from other faiths as "brothers" and worthy of Heaven if they simply are buried in the lambskin apron? At the very least, it promotes false doctrine. As practiced by many professing Christians, it is a cult.

For more information check out http://www.ephesians5-11.org/index.html.

EriK said...

That's really encouraging that one man seized the opportunity to step out in faith and give a clear Gospel presentation.

In retrospect, you can see that this is "why" your feed got knocked out. Thanks for sharing this.

rjdeal said...

I just wanna say that please please quit trashing on Glen Beck. Look maybe Kirk sees that you can't throw away the baby with the bath water and there is more good to what Glenn is doing then bad. Sure I question his internal understanding of scripture based on his membership in the Mormon church. I am sure Glenn knows that there are people that feel this way about him. But listen you don't know that the Holy Spirit isn't talking to him and guiding him. And Kirk sees that Glenn has huge potential in him to reach others. God and Christ and understanding Christ was the sacrificial gift given and that with his blood and trust in Him dying for our sins that he offers grace and salvation to us. And not that works save us from eternal punishment but belief in Him and that our works prove our faith and trust in that promise and that ultimate glorious ending. Look maybe Glenn knows this and is trying to help reform Mormonism. I don't know. How can you know the great works that God is doing?

Lance said...

Rjdeal: You said "But listen you don't know that the Holy Spirit isn't talking to him and guiding him." Jon does know. Scripture says Isaiah 59:1-3 NKJV

Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood, And your fingers with iniquity; Your lips have spoken lies, Your tongue has muttered perversity.

By virtue of the fact that he is still in his sin, The Holy Spirit is definitely not talking to him. God may indeed be using Glenn Beck but for judgment against us. Are we going to listen to the Mormon Jesus, the spirit brother of Lucifer, or do we listen to Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

Angela said...

Ben,
I haven't studied enough about Freemasons to know one way or the other, but if you are a Freemason telling me that it is a fraternity inline with Christian values-I can believe you and be fine with freemasonry. I hope someday more evangelicals will soften their hearts to accept all who embrace Jesus Christ as their savior- as Christians- even if they are Christians with doctrinal differences. Although recently I was reminded that in the end it will be whether or not Christ himself considers me a Christian that matters at all-not what evangelicals choose to believe about me.

Angela
A member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (a Mormon)

P.S. It is a rather long name, so I get why calling ourselves Mormons is quicker although not the real name of the church.

Angela said...

Lance, (response to 7-5 post)

Come on there is just one Jesus. He is the Lord of those who are pure in heart and strive to be like Him by their best efforts and continually repenting. I would expect he looks first at these qualifications before he even checks to see church affiliation. So, Glen Beck, Kirk Cameron, and all of us are only as good as our heart's true desires, which only Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ can know 100%. Certainly, we can make righteous judgements. But it always seemed to me that righteous were doing a lot less judging than everyone else.

Jon Speed said...

Angela,

You need to spend more time with the Bible than the Book of Mormon. The Apostle Paul warns clearly that there are those who preach "another Jesus" (2 Corinthians 11:4). Who are these people? Just about everyone else other than evangelical Christians who hold to a literal reading of the Word of God.

Roman Catholics: Their "Jesus" is not the Head of the Church; the Pope is. He also makes appearances in shower mildew and on pieces of toast.

JW's: Their Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

Seventh Day Adventists: The early founders of this cult agreed with the JW's.

Buddhism: He is an enlightened teacher.

Islam: A prophet.

Hinduism: One God amongst a million.

LDS: Ditto. Also the brother of Satan.

I will not allow you to deceive readers of these comments with innocuous statements like, "Come on, there is just one Jesus." That might play well amongst the pop culture, but it doesn't work where the Bible is actually studied.

Jon Speed said...

Angela,

A comment on Freemasonry. The first five degrees of Freemasonry reject the gospel and add good works to it. Sound familiar? It should. One of Joseph Smith's plural wives was formerly married to a Freemason from Batavia, NY whose husband was murdered for exposing its secrets.

Jon Speed said...

rjdeal: Mormonism will never be reformed because that insinuates that they started with something that can be fixed. Mormonism doesn't need reforming; it needs to be dissolved and its members need to find churches which preach the Bible alone, Christ alone, faith alone, by grace alone for the glory of God alone.

Furthermore, that simply is not the way it works. Laymen do not make doctrine in the LDS church; that is the role of the first presidency. Which, in recent years, seems to be driven by popular culture. When racism becomes passe, it's amazing how a "revelation" comes stating that blacks can be part of the LDS priesthood. Sort of like the "revelation" that plural marriage was passe when Utah was trying to gain statehood.

Angela said...

Jon & rjdeal,

I hope your readers do pray for a knowledge of truth and do not lean on your misunderstandings of scripture or the LDS church. I stand by the one Jesus statement. In the end He will judge us all, and he'll use our words, deeds, and intent. So, God Bless us all to be right with Him.

Angela

Lance said...

Angela, your Prophets and Elders teach that Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer and that as God was, man is and that as God is, man shall become. The Bible says that He is an eternal Spirit and that Jesus is the Eternal Son of God. Lucifer is a created being, a fallen cherub who fell by lifting himself up with pride desiring to be like God. (Sound familiar?) These are doctrinal differences that are as wide as the gulf between Heaven and Hell. The book of Mormon teaches it is by grace you are saved after all you can do. The Bible says by grace are we saved despite all we've done. You need to be brave and leave the Mormon church and put your faith and trust in the real Jesus who is fully God and fully man who 2000 years ago willingly went to the Cross to die a brutal bloody death and to suffer God's holy wrath against sin that you and I so rightly deserve. Three days later He rose from the grave forever defeating sin, death, and the Devil. A good judge will not let a guilty criminal go free based on him turning over a new leaf and becoming a law abiding citizen. No, he will punish the guilty criminal for breaking the Law. The only way the Judge will let him go is if the fine is paid or the time is served. Jesus paid that fine for you and fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law on your behalf. God requires you to repent of your dead works and trust wholly and completely in the Risen Saviour Jesus Christ for salvation - not on good works or good church attendance. I pray that God will grant you mercy that you might believe the truth. It is not by accident you are here and reading this.

Angela said...

Lance,

I pray for His mercy for me, too. And I'm not being sarcastic. I do want to know truth. Thanks!

Angela

Jon Speed said...

Angela, stand by your "one Jesus" statement if you wish. Just know that you are standing against what the Bible teaches on that very subject. That should be enough to warn you that you are in a false church.

Friederike said...

Wow, that is an interesting discussion. I Just had a conversation w/ a friend who is Mormon and my sister in law used to Mormon also, but she gave me a book one time, that was clearly evangelical. I do not see myself qualified to judge if anyone is a true Christian or not, that is only for God to decide. Angela I appreciate for sticking it out in this challenging discussion, your brave. There was 2 comments that struck me
"He is the Lord of those who are pure in heart and strive to be like Him by their best efforts and continually repenting."
I might be wrong but this sounds to me like "I" have to do it by my ow strength, what I can't. The main point in Christianity I see(and I don't think it matters what church you attend) is that I know I can't do anything w/o out Christ.I accept Jesus as my Lord and savior knowing I can't do it, but HE does it in me and through accepting his love to me and doing the works he prepares for me.I also have an assurance of his salvation. I don't know if you as Mormons have that assurance or not.Because I belong to Christ I'm saved and I will be w/ him in Heaven, bec HE died for me. If I barely make it or lived my life to the fullest in HIM is another question.BE blessed and a I pray that I will one time meet everyone on here in heaven. Blessings

Regina Fjerstad said...

As a mother of four ...i have lots of hopes and dreams for my children. I want them to learn and grow and keep progressing to their fullest potential. Is our potential limited? If we live eternally ..will we stop progressing at some point? If our Heavenly Father loves us ...wouldn't he want us to attain all He has?
We're not just pets ...we're His children ...and we have infinite and divine potential.
I pray to the same God as you do ...but none of us know everything about Him yet. But don't worry ..we'll learn and hopefully stand together in His presence someday and finally see that our hearts are the same and our purposes are the same.

Jon Speed said...

Regina,

There is a vast difference...think Grand Canyon-like "vast"...between the teaching that we can become gods and what the Bible teaches about sanctification. This is not an issue of "progression"; it is an issue of divine revelation.

Hear the Word of God, if you have ears to hear:

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)

Regina, in order to escape eternal torment in outer darkness, you must repent of your idolatrous view of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) and turn to Jesus Christ alone as the full revelation of God. The LDS church cannot make you right with God. Only Jesus Christ can do that by virtue of His perfect life and atoning death on the Cross (2 Corinthians 5:21) and His resurrection.

Terry said...

Marshall said that one of the women statues had no eyes (actually pupils) because she was looking inward however the other woman statue doesn't have pupils either. I can't find anything to substantiate his interpretation of the monument other than the obvious, e.g. the tablet represents the 10 commandments. The original designer and/or commissioners of the statue are really the only ones who can tell us what everything is supposed to represent. I feel like he made up a lot of stuff. We watched it in Sunday school (at CBC!) and someone asked where he got his interpretation and our teacher didn't know.